Anybody who doesn’t know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose.
….James Ellroy

Tonight, one of the brightest Bastard lights went dim. Ron Morgan, aka B. B. Church, has retired from the movement

I cannot tell you how sad this announcement is for us. Ron has been around longer than almost anyone. He predates Bastard Nation. I first met him on AIML around 1995 and immediately loved his brilliance, his humor, his cut-to-the-core style. Ron is the heart of the adoptee rights movement. He is the Heart of the Bastard. Ron has been our Real Politiker. He knows how things really work, not how we think they should work or want them to work. Ron is a theorist, a philosopher, a writer. Our blood poet. Ron understands AdoptionLand dirt and corruption. He’s walked the gutter. Ron is one of the few masculine voices heard above the cacophony of the girrrly girl world of adoption reform. Maybe that’s the problem.

Sometimes shit happens.

As Ron writes tonight on his blog:

I am simply posting tonight to announce that I am no longer participating in the Day for Adoptee Rights event. The event is still going on without me, I wish them well. By the same token, I wish those who have pulled out of the event, including Bastard Nation, well in their endeavors. I am also announcing my retirement from “adoptee politics”, such as it is, although I will still post from time to time on on this blog on issues relating to adoptee rights.

Ron’s departure makes a lot of us want to join him on the porch of the Old Bastard’s Home The fun stopped long ago.


  1. The Old Bastard’s Home holds lots of wonderful rocking chairs. I couldn’t possibly list everyone who resides there but let’s not forget the likes of David Ansardi, Helen Hill, Damsel, Shea and all of the others who fought so hard. There comes a time when our battles have been fought and we all deserve a rest to simply sit & rock on the porch. I’ve been feeling the call myself.

    Janet Allen

  2. I wonder if that home is next to the Old Sluts’ Home. There are a few of us BSE moms eyeing that rocking chair as well. Sometimes the guano just gets too thick to wade through.

    I always enjoyed reading Ron’s blog whether I agreed or disagreed. I’m glad he said he would keep blogging, occasionally.

    Looks like the government and the industry holds the winning hand in this one. *sigh

  3. Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Ron always seemed to smart to be involved in such silliness.

    And what does that mean that the rest of us are dumb seems to me that remark is a slap in the face to ALL adoptee’s and mother’s who care that their rights are and were abused. WHO would make such a remark and why?????

    Silliness when it comes to having ones own birth certificate. Silliness that the government seems to think they have the right to hold a person’s heritage and personal information because of one or two “mothers” were supposedly promised that they would NEVER be known. As a mother I know thats a blatant lie…its another way for NFCA to keep the adoption machine going feeding the lies,,,and trying to keep the truth from seeing the light of day.


  4. Ron was the first LDA I encountered, on alt.adoption more than 10 years ago. He’s served his time in the trenches honorably and well, IMO. It’s more than a bit childish (not to mention rude) to dismiss his efforts as “silliness”.

    P.S. There are those of us who support unqualified open records who are neither adoptees nor mothers.

    A male adoptive parent.

  5. My take on Ron’s departure is here.

    As I said:

    Today is a sad day for those who care about Bastard access to our unaltered Original Birth Certificates.

    Ron deserved a hell of a lot better than things like Kali running around in the aftermath saying things like

    I have done EVERYTHING. Not you, not bastard nation, not ron, ME.

    I don’t blame him for stepping away, not when the thanks one gets for the work they’ve done are petty lies like that out of the person you were working with.

    When one does what they can in a good faith effort only to get sucker punched on the back end, why the hell should he stick around for it?

    THAT is the current state of ‘adoption politics.’

  6. Some one has some sour grapes.
    Get help baby love child it’s not healthy to carry this much anger around.
    No one wants to eat your bittercakes anymore.

    Ron is a great man who has contributed much to the adoption cause. His good name does not need to be sullied by your hurt feelings.

  7. BLC needs to go read the comment in her blog from Ron that he sent to Me which said why he REALLY left. And no, BLC it didn’t have to do with ME, it had to do with YOU among others.

    Ron knows and acknowledges how much i did. Infact he’s PROUD of me lauren or is that Sabina, but i’m pretty sure he’s not so proud of YOUR actions.

    You should think twice before dissing someone, ONCE AGAIN when you DON’T KNOW THE WHOLE STORY.

    Unreal. I’d say I don’t believe it, but with your actions lately, sadly I do.

    Ron will be missed, but I know he’s gone on to work in fields where they don’t put up with laurens b.s. which should make him pretty happy.

  8. Where can this statement be found, Kali? I don’t see it anywhere. The truth is adoption politics is dirty, nasty, and mean It always has been and it always will. Thus, the purpose of my James Ellroy quote. Anybody who gets into it needs to realize that their life, as they know it, is over

  9. By all means call my “Lauren”, Gershom. My friends call me “Sabina” and you are certainly no friend to me.

    I’ve never hidden my name, go look at my Baby Love Child ‘about’ page

    It’s right there for the whole net to see.

    The other pages I author or co-author are right there in the right hand sidebar.

    My ‘about’ page even explains why I write under “Baby Love Child” in adoption blogging- but it’s always been connected to my name for anyone who so cares.

    I sign my name to my work.

    So call me “Lauren” if you like, I’ve no doubt you call me much worse names in private.

  10. BLC: “I’ve no doubt you call me much worse names in private.”

    That’s the smartest and most accurate assumption you’ve come up with so far.

    If you don’t like sand thrown in your face, then don’t play nasty in the sandbox.

  11. “Where can this statement be found, Kali? I don’t see it anywhere. The truth is adoption politics is dirty, nasty, and mean It always has been and it always will. Thus, the purpose of my James Ellroy quote. Anybody who gets into it needs to realize that their life, as they know it, is over”

    I am starting to wonder whose side you are on. Your statements are so, how do I say, really odd.

    1) adoption politics are mean and nasty,

    answer: that is politics people know that, of course you count disagreement with your opinon as “emotional abuse” you and BLC are cut of the same cloth.

    2) your life as you know it will be over

    answer: nope, that is hyperbole if I ever heard it.

    Discredit me, discredit Kali, discredit the other male voices in adoption reform, discredit, discredit, refuse to take responibility for your actions, how does that open records?

  12. My life is long from over, i’m sorry you see adoption “politics” like that, try to have a more positive outlook and manifest the beauty of change and equality.

    Bring some fresh air to the scene. If you feel like your life is over then its time for you to go outside and listen to LIFE itself. Yes, we are discriminated against as adoptees, and yes we have a long fight against us, but our lives are LONG from over. My life is just beginning.

    I think when people start thinking of adoption politics as the end of the world, then maybe those people need to take a break. I’m not saying go away forever, clearly you are an asset to the movement marley, i don’t want you to think i’m insinuating you are not. But be good to yourself, and good things will happen. Follow the good. There is a LOT of good in adoption politics, change, growth, unity, strength, education and enlightenment to name a few.

    Don’t let it get you down. Hold your chin up, you have a lot to hold it up for.

    We as the adopted community have a LOT to hold our heads up for. When we allow them to suppress us( and sometimes they are our own people), they have won. Our lives are just beginning, mine is far from over.

  13. About the comment Gershom sent to my blog that has not been approved:

    The answer is perfectly simple,

    Why on earth should I let you post e-mail from Ron to you into a public space when it is not merely unauthenticated, it is likely also done without RON’S consent- to the best of my knowledge.

    Ron asked no comments be left on his board- a very classy move. I am not taking comments on his announcement on my board- other than my own pointing at Marley’s post about Ron which I thought people might want to see as she had known him longer than I had.

    I have not pointed people at this comment thread.

    I’ll only address one aspect of some of what Ron was talking about, which was why I posted what I did on this thread-

    As to writing Ron out of the history of ARD, that’s not me, that’s you, when you said he did nothing. I on the other hand rightly pointed out:

    “Ron was the person who had brought up the idea of going to the National Conference of State Legislators annual meeting in the first place.”

    ARD was originally envisioned as very much a ‘Ron’ effort with you helping. Then due to his wife’s brain tumour a lot got left to you- which I also pointed out.

    Your erasure of the work he did on ARD was shameful.

  14. When I say that when you enter adoption politics that your life is over, I mean that you no longer have a private life. You either dedicate you life to adoptee rights or you don’t. Are you prepared to lose your job? Your pension. (Both happened to me) Your husband and children? Your friends? That’s what it comes down to you Unless you jettison everything you will never succeed. You can have no other attachment except the movement. Kalli, I’ve always seen you as the new generation, and I hope that is true. Nobody is trying to supress you. I’m warning you and anybody else whose crazy enough to get into this. I’d say that about any political movement just not this.

    This has nothing to do with adoption or its politics. The US as we know it is dead Politics is dead. The economy is dead. Truth, whatever that is, is dead. At least I have another country to go to. Most people don’t.

  15. “”The truth is adoption politics is dirty, nasty, and mean It always has been and it always will. Thus, the purpose of my James Ellroy quote. Anybody who gets into it needs to realize that their life, as they know it, is over””

    I find it intellectually sad..that some people did not understand Marley’s statement. I entered AdoptionLand in 1999…my life as I knew it was over and changed dramatically. Does not mean that Your Life is Over, like Fine’! Politics of any sort, once entering into, changes your’s life is over, as one once knew it. Politics is a most challenging and ‘take no prisoners alive’ venture. Adoption is part of national when the Feds decide to enact rules that subsidize adoption on the state level.

    There have been many, many times in the past that I have disagreed with Marley on some of her stances. But one thing I have always said to myself and to others.. She is most definitely savvy in the area of politics, which includes adoption politics. You younger ones too easily dismiss the wisdom of the ‘elders’ should listen a bit more, you just might learn something! I am of Marley’s generation, and I have learned a thing or two from her over these past years. One is never too old to listen and to learn. If changing the Face of Injustice only took some ‘enthusiasm’, what a wonderful world we would live in. Sadly, enthusiasm alone, simply won’t get it. One also has to be politically savvy. JMO!

  16. I think I understand what you are saying about your life being changed forever, and the idea of losing friendships and a job is certainly daunting and I am sorry that you had to go through that.

    I could never devote my life to adoptee rights the way you have. Never. I don’t doubt there was plenty of sacrifice and that I can learn a lot from you, I have.

    My life however will not be an imitation of yours, I am younger, in part because of Bastard Nations work, adoptees searching is not pathologized as it once was but much more accepted, the question has gone from why search to when search.

    I haven’t lost a friend, of those that I have told, I hold my cards pretty close to my chest IRL, my opinions are not necessarily everyone’s business.

    I can’t get fired, cuz I am the boss.

    And adoption has already taken so much from my life.

    I appreciate what you are saying though, I do, I don’t doubt there are some grave consequences.

    and BLC:

    Since I have starred in yet another one of your blog posts, and I don’t want the drama on my blog, while flattering, it is unnecessary.

    I am not sure what you intend to prove by attempting to discredit my opinion.

    I am not the official spokesperson for anyone but myself and that was just me talking .

    I am not that big of a deal to your life really, I am not writing the literature for the adoptee rights protest, you can relax.

    Shake it off, go for a run or something.

    As one of my sister’s likes to say, “Hating me, won’t make you pretty”

  17. Joy said

    in part because of Bastard Nations work, adoptees searching is not pathologized as it once was but much more accepted, the question has gone from why search to when search.

    Which is nothing other than more ignorant and conflationary language.

    You are recasting Bastard Nation as something it is not.

    You, like so many others who are working on the adoptee rights demonstration want Bastard Nation to have been about search, you want it to be about the courts, you want it to be about anything other than what Bastard politic and Bastard Nation actually are.

    You’ve missed the entire point of Bastard Nation. BN is very specifically not about search nor making search more socially acceptable, it’s about the Bastard’s relationship with the State. BN is about regaining the access we once had to our original birth certificates and adoption records.

    For many of us this is either not about search, or if search even figures into it it’s a second consecutive step AFTER we first get our information from the State.

    To quote BN’s FAQ

    Is Bastard Nation a search organization?

    No. While we support those adoptees who wish to search for birth relatives and offer resources on our website,, we do not help people search. Our mission relates only to unconditional adoptee access to birth and adoption records. Our concern is the relationship of the adopted person to the state, not to his or her birth or adoptive parents. We believe it is a personal decision whether one wishes to reconnect with birth relatives, one which adoptees should be able to make freely without state interference.

    But then, there I go again, actually expecting you to have any idea what pre-existing Bastard politic looks like, when clearly you don’t.

  18. You are the one who is missing Joy’s point. She knows it is not about searching. What she is saying though is that BN through their efforts has made it ok for adoptees to speak out and say they WANT to know where they came from.
    Bastard Nation gave adoptees a voice they didn’t have before and Joy is acknowledging that.
    Anyone who knows anything about Bastatrd nation know that they are about equal rights for adoptees first and foremost. And that is very empowering for those adoptees who have een villianized for looking beyond their “forever families”.
    With that said, I am worried about you.
    I really think your anger and hurt over the way things have transpired is clouding everything you read and hear from what you deem “the other side”.
    The fact of the matter is that anything related to the Day for Adoptee Rights has nothing to do with you anymore and that was your choice.
    If they fall on their faces, it will have nothing to do with you. If they succeed in getting their message across, whatever that may be, it’s not your responsibility.
    You chose to leave. Bastard Nation chose to leave. It’s just not your concern anymore.
    Let it go.
    I know that you feel the need to have the last word in all of this but the reality is that this protest is happening.
    You have got to move on.

  19. BN isn’t concerned about the booth – they pulled out, no questons asked, no talk of provisions. They could have tried to negotiate something with the organizing committee before they pulled out, but they didn’t. They left people on their own to provide a protest and exhibitors booth for the supporters that are expecting it. That’s what the donations have gone toward. you do know that, don’t you BLC?

    BN wanted to person the booth, in fact, Marley said that it was imperative that BN be in the booth at all times. Then BN left without any discussion on the financial or labour commitments and responsibilities regarding the exhibitors booth. Nothing was discussed.

    Did BN try to confirm with the NCSL administrative staff if the booth fees were refunadable before they quit? I guess not. The booth fees are not refundable.

    They just quit.

    The booth is there regardless of the protest, so if BN isn’t concerned about it, BLC – why are you?

  20. Illiget kid, yes, of course we listen to our elders – there would not be a movement to speak of if the younger ones hadn’t been listening and learning from the elders. There is also a respect that is a given to the ones that have paved the road for any social/political movement. And despite the actions and disagreements of the people fighting in the same arena, this respect is always present.

    While we listen and learn, we are also observing and making notes.

    It is not only the successes of our elders that are being observed, but also the mistakes.

  21. From BNs FAQ

    Is Bastard Nation anti-adoption?

    No. We are not anti-adoption; we ARE adoption. The opposition to open records, most notably the National Council for Adoption, has long characterized those who are for open records as being anti-adoption, since in their convoluted logic the end of sealed records will destroy adoption as an institution. There are many adoption-related issues BN takes no position on. While individual members hold varying views on adoption, the only mission of Bastard Nation is the restoration and maintenance of the right of adopted persons to unconditional access to their own state-held records.

    Why, then did BN make such a fuss about the adoption agency raising funds? Something that was cleared up in one day by the remaining organizors of the ARD team. BN clearly says in the above statement that their only concern is access to state-sealed records. BN doesn’t state their postion on the adoption industry. Yet, that’s one of the reasons they used for pulling out of the protest.

    You want contradictions, BLC? We’ll find lotsa them for ya. In fact, I will debate this issue with till the cows come home, if that’s what you’d like.

  22. More bizarre…

    When BN withdrew, the first place they posted their annoucement was an adult adoptee support forum, then they posted it on other adoption forums.

    I dunno, but I think the first place I’d be posting an annoucement like that would be to my org’s own web site so my members would be the first to know. I actually wouldn’t post it anywhere else until it was on my organization’s web site.

    BN waited four days before posting their announcment to the Bastard Nation web site.

  23. “They could have tried to negotiate something with the organizing committee before they pulled out, But they didn’t. They left people on their own to provide a protest and exhibitors booth for the supporters that are expecting it. That’s what the donations have gone toward. you do know that, don’t you BLC?”

    Actually, that’s not true. We have tried to negotiate with the new group for a week now and have been rebuffed. We have payment waiting for them. We have a few concerns we want cleared up about the use of BN’s name in NOLA. We simply want to guarantee that our name is removed from everything.

    BN never intended to NOT pay our share. Why would you think otherwise? Did I or anyone speaking for BN ever say we would not pay our pledged share. No! That was an assumption by some vocal members on AAAFC who do not understand the meaning of the word “boundaries” and apparently expected that BN would discuss financial and business matters on their public forum–matters, which, were none of their business.

    BN has been trying to pay our share vendor space since March. We requested a bill 5-6 times from DAR. None arrived until the end of May, shortly before things fell apart. BN is a 501(c)(4) membership organization with fiduciary responsibility to that membership. We don’t pay out funds without an invoice or other paperwork. Do you? DAR is not incorporated and as far as I know, has no fiscal agent.

    I was basically offline when this hit with limited email access. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, except for when I was in a hotel, I was offline. I planned to take care of business when I returned home from California By then, the gossip on AAAFC had overtaken everything, and made what could have been amicable parting of the ways, ugly. We envisioned a pretty smooth transition. They did not. Now the new group isn’t interested in settling anything, at least according to the latest email to me–which is a private email and will NOT be posted publicly.

    We did not have to “consult” with the NCSL if the funds were refundable. The rules are in the handbook. No one was going to be out a dime. And they won’t be, if someone from the new organization acts in a business-like, responsible manner and takes control of this mess.

    Our big concern was (1) the hidden costs, which nobody knew about until we had signed on and (2) the lack of interest in the event from AdoptionLand–an event which was supposed to be a “mass action,” not a little protest, and had been discussed for a year. One whole year! With a minimal amount of hotel rooms booked, the writing was on the wall but the end of May. Ron called for a suspension of the event, not a cancellation. Those of us who have experience in organizing know that an event should be done right or not at all.

    Carrying on when there was little interest would have been irresponsibe. BN planned to spend a considerable amount of money on study guides and other handouts for Bastard Bootcamp. We were writing fact sheets, bullet points, a tri-fold brochure to hand out to leggies and aides inside the convention center. We were workng on buttons and other giveaways for several hundred goody bags we were preparing. We were lining up speakers and would have subsidized their travel and/or hotel expenses if necessary. We were working on corporate sponsorship of our hospitality suite.

    While we were doing this, there had been no word from the lead organizer, A Day for Adoptee Rights, on their plans for literature or any other plans from their side. There was no word from DAR on the status of the several permits needed to stage the protest; nor even a schedule of events we could work with to help us make our own plans.There was no logo designed or NCSL advertising strategy planned (deadline fast approaching.) If DAR was waiting for our funds to help pay for permits or other expenses, they could have sent us a bill so we could pay our share and get them moving on it. Waiting until 2 months before the event to apply for permits and finalize plans is not the way to plan an effective event.

    We were frustrated, but no one was mad at anyone until gossip and speculation took over. DAR was not out anything. In fact, people not particularly related to this whole mess have said to me, “What are they so mad about?” Everything makes perfect sense to people who work in the real world of business, non-profits, and politics.

  24. Why, then did BN make such a fuss about the adoption agency raising funds? Something that was cleared up in one day by the remaining organizors of the ARD team. BN clearly says in the above statement that their only concern is access to state-sealed records. BN doesn’t state their postion on the adoption industry. Yet, that’s one of the reasons they used for pulling out of the protest.”

    No, it was not cleared up in one day, and there are still huge questions involving the Abrazo fundraising scheme.

    No adoptee rights organization should ever solicit or take funds from the adoption industry. Would the UAW take strike funds from the president of GM? If you don’t get the implications of Abrazo marketing its product through adoptees, then you better get out of the game now.

  25. They waited four days before posting their announcement to the Bastard Nation web site.

    We did not wait days. The announcement was on the BN website the same time it went to AAAFC. It was on our both our blogs there the regular blog and the action alert blog. We had problems getting our original promotion of the event down due to the inability to immediately reach a volunteer webmaster to remove it. We finally got a short announcement up with a link to the big announcement. There seems to be a problem with the RSS feed that I don’t know how to fix which didn’t put it on the front page as it should have.

    The announcement was posted here, on BN’s DAR blog, and on MySpace and sent out as a MySpace BN bulletin.

  26. But Marley, the people that you called no-nothings on the AFC, are people who work in non-profits, professors at universities, attorneys, people who run their own businesses, accountants, school teachers, marketers, computer techs, artists. People who know how to read 990s for example and understand what they mean.

    I don’t know why you seem to have the impression that the only capacity they exist in is what you can see on that forum.

    We may be new but we have grown to over 500 members with virtually no publicity in our first year, we are the most active adoptee board outside of, our bloggers have struck nerves with the NCFA, Holt Int’l, and Adoption Law Network. Our page rankings are higher, than BN members, to discount our influence is foolish. You don’t have to take my word for it, this is all verifiable by outside sources. This isn’t bluster, check for yourself.

    Like us or hate us it is undeniable that we have the ear of the adoption community and have captured their imagination.

    You don’t know our backgrounds and never bothered to ask.

    BLC and her boyfriend coming here and posting all their I am sure long-rehearsed unfunny insults that they find so clever, only make them look like they crack under pressure and have lost sight of their goal.

    Politics isn’t just about getting along with politicians, politics is also about inspiring people to help further the cause, insulting them and patronizing them doesn’t do it.

    It is a two-way street. See Hillary’s concession speech for example.

    When you lecture us about real business people you forget you are talking to real business people who have sat on non-profit boards, who read financial statements, who have built schools from the ground up, who have worked in politics.

    Honestly, I tried to reach out to BN publically, I have not dirted you on my blog, my personal feelings about how this was handled are something I dealt with personally.

    It sad that with all the political savvy you keep talking about you can’t see that alienating, insulting, and demeaning an enthuisiatic group of adoptees is something you consider appropriate, and when handed an olive branch, batted it away like a sulking child.

    If BN was more politically savvy than they are, was more sophisticated in public relations, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

    It is too bad.

  27. The word is “know nothings” not “no nothings.” I didn’t say they were stupid. They knew nothing about details or lack thereof, of the event. Their statements were based on supposition and assumption, not facts to which they were not privy to. In a judicial setting, they’d be laughed out of court. I can give an opinion on Condi Rice’s sex life from what I’ve read, but I’m not part of it.

    Please explain how you have struck nerves with NCFA? Has Tom Atwood send you a demand letter or something? What do you mean your pages numbers are higher than BN’s? How would you possibly know how many hits we get? AAAFC is a discussion forum for pete’s sake. Like SOFA, like, Full of people in dire need of some kind of emotional support. That’s OK. Some people are so beat down by their adoption experience that they can’t see beyond it.

    Care to have a nice discussion on post-colonialism or the embodiment of the pregnant body? Care to discuss how the upward mobility of working class parents shaped adoption policy? Care to discuss class and race as applied to adoption and the third wave of feminism? How about Foucault? have you developed any theory on your own? Why is it that you and some of the others involved in the new DAR don’t even believe that legislation is the proper response to records access? That you prefer the judicial angle, which has proven to be reactionary and useless?

    Bastard Nation pulled out of DAR for sound reasons. If you guys want to carry it on and change the focus,and dillute the message, feel free. I read your blog and others, Joy. I haven’t come over to your sandbox to play, yet you continue to come over here. WHy exactly ARE you so angry?

  28. I am saddened not angry, the no-nothings was a typo. Yes, you caught me I make typos.

    You can tell who has been on your blog with site meters, the NCFA has linked to other blogs through mine and I have heard back from those authors.

    You can google a page rank of anyone’s blog, that is how I know.

    Honestly I could have a conversation with you about Foucault if I wanted, or Ingmar Bergman’s Films, certainly third wave feminism as I was in the thick of it, Wagner, Hitler, Camus’ Dark Orpheus, mastication, Conrad and colonialism, do you think this intimidates me or scares me?

    It isn’t going to open records, and I am kind of over that whole look what I learned in college and have no interest in being a superannuated grad student.

    I was hoping that things could be worked out, obviously there is no interest.

    I will say, you show a shocking lack or practical knowledge about how law works. It doesn’t matter if it has been tried in court, what matters is how it has been tried in court, Plessy vs. Ferguson, and Brown vs. the Board, is illustration enough for that.

    So I will leave you intellectual giants to your esoteric inner workings.

    I have a protest to plan, and btw the word is dilute not dillute.

    Peace Out.

  29. What is going on here? First BN drops out of the protest, which I do understand, but for Ron to drop out now is spooky. I have to wonder if mega power abusing groups, like the ACLU, The Knights of Columbus and the NCFA aren’t threatening Anti-Adoption Activists in some way. I wouldn’t put that past them-hell, I wouldn’t put threatening the life of an Anti-Adoption activists child past them. Other groups in the US have gone that low-we need to start talking to our reps and senators one on one, and tell them our stories, kleenex and all. We CAN NOT quit and THEY will not win. Fuck the adoption industry and the barren bitches who enslave children.

  30. contuinued from my post above-
    Ron does deserve applause for all he has done and the pain he endured doing it. As an adoptee, I give him a standing ovation.

  31. “The Knights of Columbus and the NCFA aren’t threatening Anti-Adoption Activists in some way.”

    If only it were that simple. This has nothing to do with NCFA, et al. It’s plain old in internicene (sp) fighting at its best. Kinda like Obamaniacs v Hillaryheads. The Vatican v the Orthodox Church. Randal Terry v Troy Newman.

    BN is not an anti-adoption organization, and even if it were, we’d not let NCFA run us out. BN pulled out for sound business reasons. If somebody else wants to carry on and change the tone of the event, that’s there business. We’re not part of it

  32. Joy you said the BN page–which is NOT a blog. It is a webpage. How do you know that NCFA has read once single blog you or your friends have written.

    If you have no intellectual underpinnings in adoption politics, then you have no theory, and thus no strategy.

    I fear it is you who have no idea how law works. Records access is a state issue. It is thrown back continually to the states.

    Aren’t yo getting tired of this? Go plan your protest. Have fun.

  33. From Kevan,

    Well, I’m fine. It would appear the adoption rights movement is not, however. But, this always happens in just about every group. Everyone can’t all be Che Guevara at once and that probably hurts a lot of peoples’ feelings. Or there are too many Lenins and not enough proletariat. Or maybe too many Stalins. Anyway, something like that. “Up with the peoples’ revolution!!! (So long as I look good and can take all the credit…)”

    The fact is, most of the social services agencies only go in for closed records because that’s what the law says and most of them aren’t fit to work anywhere but for the legion of incompetents that inhabit all government offices. Look at our president, need I say more? And he’s entrusted with thousands of megatons worth of nuclear weapons. Most of these paper-pushers in social services wouldn’t have an original thought if one landed in their email inbox. The law says no open records, so they don’t question it. The nazis would have loved these guys. Not only would they follow orders, but defend them as the easier method! That’s it in a nutshell. Changing the law is too hard and these people are too lazy to learn a new system. It’s as simple as that.

    So, that said, social justice movements tend to wind up as the people they most despise. The anti-racism movements start making racist remarks, the ACLU favors censorship in some cases, and so forth. Open records are a far away dream because you’re not only up against lazy POS in the government, the capitalism of the adoption indsutry, but also the narcissistic infighting of the adoption rights movement. Don’t everybody fight over the blame because there’s plenty to go around. This is not about you or you or you. This is about the people in the future who are going to go through the same BS some of us did. You know exactly WTF I am talking about. The alcoholism, the drugs, the counseling, the running away from everything. And what are we going to tell them? That we sat around inflating our own egos and fighting over who gets to be the messiah. Outstanding.

  34. Why, Marley, do you keep insulting your fellow adoptees here?
    There are so many of us who could help you in your endeavors and yet you are continuously turning us away and calling us uneducated and simple.
    I have not one college degree vut three. I have an amazing job with lots of contacts political and otherwise.
    But you keep saying that all of us who disagree with you are uneducated and can’t hold your caliber of conversation. That’s just offensive and extremely uncalled for.
    And yet, you’re the one who doesn’t even know what your own page ranking is or how to access the information.
    BTW it was also very easy to access BN’s tax filings online. Did you know that?
    According to your most recent records from 2006,BN is bleeding money. You can’t generate enough interest to cover very simple expenses. Good thing you have bit of a stock pile from the years BN actually had relevance in the adoption world.
    You really need to reevaluate the way you address your peers as a whole (because we ARE your peers), because right now, you are alienating a lot of people who could help you in your ultimate endeavor.
    And p.s. correcting someone on a typo says more about you than it says about them I’m just sayin’.

  35. I never said anyone was stupid. What I said was that you need intellectual and theoretical underpinning to win the argument and I haven’t seen any coming out of AAAFC. If I am wrong, please tell me where I might find them. BN is “hardly bleeding money.” Our account has been about the same since the beginnng. And what expenses might not we be meeting? It might also help if people would post here under their real names.

  36. Marley said-

    It might also help if people would post here under their real names.

    But see, that’s the problem with ‘Annona (the toothless) piranha’, they would far rather engage in sniping than actually engaging.

    -Baby Love Child/
    Lauren Sabina Kneisly

  37. I concede

    You are far and away anything that I could ever hope to be.

    I am not good enough, not smart enough, should go sit in my illertate corner.

    I am unworthy for you to deign to take me seriously.

    I am nothing, my business experience, my non-profit experience, my legal experience,my marketing experience, my experience as a teen mom, as an adoptee, is nothing. My experience as a former welfare mom, is nothing, I am gum on your shoe.

    My assertion that the NCFA is all over my blog like lice, is just a site meter mistake. My page rating which from 4 to 5 is a hella of big leap is just a result of me giving my welfare checks to Larry Page. The cease and desist letters from Holt Int’l was just confusion. They thought I was a KAD in MN.

    Adoption Law Network was hoping I was porn.

    You rule, I drool.

    You win.

    You are smart and know about philosophers, I on the other hand didn’t exist before you saw the many mistakes I made.

    I am illiterate and dysfunctional, and have, *gasp* adoptee issues. You are brilliant, and amazingly problem free.

    Never the less, even a problem free perfection like yourself, standing others up, creates a problem.

    Throwing well-meaning adoptees, as stupid, and unworthy as they are under the bus, creates a problem.

    It is too bad your highness has left the likes of stupid me to fill the booth, that BN has better things to do with their resources than talk to state legislators.

    Very sad, and for me particularly sad, because I have never believed in much of anything, but I did believe in you, and how I did believe in you.

    You were my hero.

    No shitting Marley, you were my hero.

    I loved you, I adored you, I worshipped you, and I don’t worship easy.

    How many posts did I post worshipping you? Even when I knew I had a more popular blog? You mattered to me a lot. A lot.

    Your feelings, your expressions, your everything, I looked up to you. I didn’t look up to anyone like I looked up to you. NO ONE.

    For fucks sake I loved you.

    But I am shit to you. Okay.

  38. I have never said anything such thing about you or anyone else, Joy. Please, go to New Orleans Have a good time. Organize. I don’t wish anyone ill, and I trust you don’t either.

  39. “I have not one college degree vut three”.

    3 colleage degrees and you can’t spell but. Kind of a waste of money, don’t you think?

  40. *colleage

    I never went to college because my cheapo adoptive parents would not pay for it, so at least I have an excuse for why I spelt it wrong.

  41. You know Joy, alot of you in the AAAFC forum treat other adoptees like shit. You mock them, tell them they have anger problems and have no remorse for the pain you’ve caused them. Consider what is happening with Marley and DAR you’re karma. Pretty sucky to feel now how you treat others isn’t it?

  42. From Kevan,

    Here’s a thought. I have no camels in this race, so I’ll throw in my two dinars.

    First, I thought having one big gig in New Orleans was a bad idea. Who could afford to go? Not every adoptee, that’s for sure. Really, gas was already high when this thing was planned and, hello, there’s a war on. It could have gone higher at any time; we know that and anyone who didn’t was drinking the kool-aid. And why New Orleans? If you’re going to push for maximum exposure, go to Washington DC. Shit, that’s where Rolling Thunder ends up every year.

    Why wasn’t the push made to organize on a state level to have folks all at their state capitols on the same day? I keep hearing that you can’t get open records by pushing the feds to make a federal law, so why then a centralized protest? If we have to go state-by-state, then the protests should have been state by state. A protest in New Orleans doesn’t mean anything to officials in the state of California or any other state. Their law enforcement people didn’t have to waste time with monitoring it and nobody hassled their bureaucrats for interviews and questioning. In a very real sense, all that it would have been was another “Hey, look at us!” event that would get buried on page ten behind a story about the history of hummus.

    I can’t see the value in wasting time with one big protest. When everyone is in one place, they’re easy to avoid. But at state capitols, they can’t hide so easy.

    But I’m also coming to the conclusion that half the adoptees out there are drinking the state-sponsored kool-aid. They don’t want their records. I’ve met some like that. Instead of spending money on some protest in New Orleans, why not take that cash and take out a full-page ad in the New York Times asking why we can’t get our records? Why not collect funds for major exposure in publications? Rolling Stone articles are nice, but not everyone reads that. In fact, lots of people don’t. People have got to start thinking about different approaches. Otherwise, people better get used to this reality: It will take 100 YEARS for open records going the way it is going right now.

    Like I said, half the adoptees eityher don’t care or don’t know adoptee rights is out there. You have to reach out to them. Otherwise, all you’re doing is preacjhing to an increasingly smaller each year choir. And, really, adoptees need to stop with this bullshit, catty bickering and sniping. That’s all I’ve seen since I go involved in this and that’s why I quietly backed away. I couldn’t see wasting my time with suggestions when people say, “Oh, we already TRIED that!!!” but providing NO PROOF it was, in fact, tried. There appears to be a group in the movement that wants to keep control for itself. Which is why I won’t play that game. I’m tired of the infighting, bitchy remarks, and unwillingness to even talk about new ideas or try something new. I’ve got mine. I’ve got all my identity and personal history. Shit, I have more than most non-adopted have on their families. Hope y’all can get yours. Spend more time doing and less talking and see how easy it is.

  43. No Marley, you did, that was your attitude.

    That was what you made post after post after, how important me and likes of me weren’t, how much more elevated you are.

  44. A couple of things for you, Kevan, for clarification. The event is in New Orleans at the annual National Conference of State Legislators is meeting this year. Supposedly 6,000 state leggies and aides will be there (and theier families). It’s the big meat market, so so speak, for lobbying Over 900 vendors have space there this year. So that’s why a “mass action” was planned for NOLA. This was not a BN project, but we were asked to co-sponsor, and we agreed. There are also other co-sponsors. When it was clear that little interest had been generated, we withdraw. That didn’t mean it’s a bad idea, but not just for this year. A agree with you on the weather. I was in NOLA several years ago in July and it was horrible. And also agree with you on the economy. Nobody will be going anywhere soon. The US is dead.

    For several years we sponsored NARD, which was an event where adoptees went to their state or local VS offices on a specific day and requested their obcs. This was not real successful in the long term. Among other reasons it had to be held during the week, and only a handful of people could do it. To make it worse, in Seattle, where a substantial number of people did plan to do it, we were hit with the WTO riot only a couple blocks away. while I have no objection to being arrested or if it’s strategic, most people do.

  45. From Kevan,

    I’ve got to be honest with you, Marley. I think adoption rights is a dead issue. Too much infighting. Too much bullheadedness. Disagreements escalate into major flame wars with insults traded back and forth. You can’t even get involved on a local level because there is no organization to speak of. No state reps that answer emails. I certainly don’t want to be involved in it anymore. To what end? All I keep hearing is, “We tried that and it doesn’t work!” Ok, fine. Then nothing works. It’s a dead issue, especially when so many REFUSE to make a phone call to bureaucrats or even get what papers they can from the state, but have all damn day to participate in flame wars on email lists or blogs. They want their rights to come magically by incantations on blogs and email discussion lists the State DOES NOT READ. That’s not the way things work.

  46. I think the whole idea of “rights” is dead in the US. Anyone who doesn’t see The Patriot Act, TSA, Homeland Security, Real ID, and the surveilance state as an attack on “rights” deserves what they get. Rights, as defined in the US, are those favors that come down from the state. Apparently nobody teaches natural law, the Constitution, or even the works of Thomas Jefferson anymore.

    Across the board, “activism” is dead–on the right, left (whatever they are anymore) and anything in between. People are afraid of the state, they’re afraid of the economy, and they’re afraid to speak up.

  47. I think the answer is too get more adoptees in the government. Look what one did for the whole state of Maine. I wish Sen. Bonoit could get a federal law to open all adoption records. Personally I think Marley should consider running for office along with other political savvy BSE moms. If we had an elected adoptee in every state, the war is won.

  48. From Kevan,

    It would be step in the right direction, but first adoptees need to get off their keyboards and fourth points of contact and DO something besides piss, whine, bitch, and bicker.

  49. “You know Joy, alot of you in the AAAFC forum treat other adoptees like shit. You mock them, tell them they have anger problems and have no remorse for the pain you’ve caused them. Consider what is happening with Marley and DAR you’re karma. Pretty sucky to feel now how you treat others isn’t it?”

    I know many people consider responding to anon comments as beneath them, but I don’t.

    I disagree with your characaterzation. We do ban certain adoptees, and it is always with a great amount of unhappiness. Our forum is not focused on adoptee rights but adoptee well-being, and those that are so damaged, that show up and proclaim that adoptees should be shot in the head et al. yes, we sadly prevent their access.

    We want adoptees to feel strong, condfident and worthwhile. We are not doctors, we only offer friendship and encouragement, that is all.

    No, it is not “sucky” I can take the slings and arrows, if you have something to teach me, my ego, is nothing if not common, I don’t care about it. I really want to learn.

    I want adoptees to be granted the same human dignity that all others are.

    That is it, that is all I care about.

    I always had it, I am not gaining anything for myself.

    I will learn from anyone. I will give up when I can. I want to give up, right now I can’t.

    All I want from anyone at this point is a pithy, salient 7 to 10 word sentence about why records should be restored, that is all I want.

    I can’t take care of you anon. I am just one person, I am nothing. Take care of yourself.

  50. Joy says:

    All I want from anyone at this point is a pithy, salient 7 to 10 word sentence about why records should be restored, that is all I want.

    Phil says:

    To thank all original mothers for their loss and sacrifice.

    -Phil Ruggiero, Jr. (LDA)

  51. Joy said, of the AAAFC forum/Adult Adoptees forum:

    “Our forum is not focused on adoptee rights but adoptee well-being,…”

    Thanks for clarifying publicly that your practices contradict your own welcome page. (Joy is listed as part of the admin. team on that forum.)

    On the public welcome page, the forum’s goals are presented as twofold:

    “Our main feature is our support forum where our members can come together and talk about whatever they desire…”


    “Here at, our second, and equally important issue is adoptee rights. We believe in equal rights for all people. We believe that everyone should have access to their original unaltered birth certificate.


    So the welcome page lays out two equally important focuses, yet in both your words here, and in the actions that took place on the forum, the sealing of threads related to Bastard Nation and my resignation from the N’awlins event, Adult Adoptee forums have made their real focus abundantly clear by their actions.

    Actions do outweigh shiny words everytime.

    Focus on alleged “support” is one tactic, another is that the only “activism” threads which will remain unlocked will be those created by AAAFC people working on New Orleans, not BN, nor other original Adoptee Rights Demonstration activists like myself.

    Always interesting to see the administrative team of a forum espouse one position, but when push comes to shove, lock down anyone they disagree with.

    And as for the forum’s “support?” Not a single person on the forum gave a rat’s ass about my partner’s health despite my mention of such as one reason I was no longer active in ARD/DAR. With “support” like that, I think I’ll do just fine on my own.

    My partner is recovering from surgery nicely, by the way, not that you folks ever spent a moment caring about such.

  52. “Always interesting to see the administrative team of a forum espouse one position, but when push comes to shove, lock down anyone they disagree with”.

    I’ll drink to that. Here’s what another victim of the AAFC forum has to say about it.

    “Joy” is the Administrator of a Group Officially Called
    “Adult Adoptees Advocating For Change”
    However, I think
    “Abusive Adoptees Advocating For Adopters”
    Fits Their Deceptive Ego Org MUCH Better!

    Joy’s Our Admin

    …… sung to the tune of “Joy to the World” in honor of her fine Xtian Values 😉

    Joy’s Our Admin, on the board she’s god

    Let the forum kiss her Ass!
    Let every member chant, or they’re labeled shit clods
    Adopters first, adoptees last
    Adopters first, adoptees last
    Adopter’s rights come first … and Adoptee’s last

    Joy’s our Admin, and our saviour says
    Ban members who object
    The sick suck-up Stewie and Brown Nosed Addy Pray
    Kiss the Ass of Admin Joy
    Kiss the Ass of Admin Joy
    Kiss the Ass, Kiss the Assssss, of Admin Joy

    Joy doesn’t let adoptees know
    Adopters prowl her ground
    They want so they’ll take more, while making quite a show
    With kids stolen from their Moms
    With kids stolen from their Moms
    With kids stolen from their Moms, they were not “Found!”

    Joy rules the board with lies and hate
    And shames dissenters well
    Abuse she heaps upon adoptees, if to her they will not bow down
    Will she make her A-Mother proud?
    Will she make her A-Mother proud?
    Will she make… will she finally make, her A-Mom proud?

    Anyone else get the utter hypocrisy of this message from an Adoption supporter in a group that publicly claimes to be an “Adoptees Only Support Group”??? ROFL
    I wrote this little ditty shortly after I joined their “Adoptees Only” list, only to find out there are Adopters on it too.

    For those of you who don’t know, MANY Adoptees do not wish to share air with Adopters for a variety of reasons …mainly because they take children way from their real mothers, then expect the kid to be grateful.

    Whatever, the point is the forum claims to be “Adoptee Only” and I had made my desire to be on a board without Adopters VERY clear to Joy when I asked join the list.

    When I objected to the blatant LIE in their Masthead, Joy responded with a smart ass remark, and then a bunch of her boot licking followers promptly jumped in like a pack of Jackals and proceeded to insult Paganism, call me a piece of shit, etc. etc. If you are an Adoptee, or a Pagan, or an Adoptee AND a Pagan, you know the drill.

    I did manage to tell them what I thought of them before one of Joy’s pet morons was finally able to figure out how to ban me LOL

    “Adult Adoptees Advocating For Change” aka “Abusive Adoptees Advocating For Adopters” (“AAAA” Their 24 Step Program to be Posted Soon 😉
    bill themselves as a “Support Group for Adoptees”

    What they don’t tell you is that they mean the word “Support” in a Marquis de Sade kinda way :-/

    If you are an Adoptee who has had his/her fill of being a punching bag for A-Parents, avoid “Adult Adoptees Advocating For Change” like you would a Catholic Charity.

    If you are masochistic and really into pain, consider this page a ringing endorsement of their ability to continue the cycle of abuse Adoptees are born to.

    If you are an A-Parent, consider this site fair warning. I care even less about what you think then I care about what you feel!

    Adopters use stolen children as a cure for infertility, with little regard for the damage done to the child. Adopters create the demand that turns children into commodities and you should slink away quietly NOW unless you want a severe Filking too!”

    Here’s the link to read the rest.

  53. Ron always seemed to smart to be involved in such silliness.

    And what does that mean that the rest of us are dumb”


  54. Hey Joy-hating Anon:
    Your song sucks. Not because of the lyrics but because I tried singing it to Joy to the World and it didn’t work. Terrible. Terrible.
    My kid writes better songs than you and he’s five.
    I’m embarrassed for you.

  55. From Kevan,

    Well, as a Pagan myself, I will avoid that forum of Joy’s. Most discussion forum moderators and administrators are powerless in their own personal lives and, so become tyrants on the boards they moderate. Most of them work at Taco Bell, have luckless relationships (if any at all) and are usually 40 and living at home with mom. So they jump on the internet, moderate discussion forums, and behave like the complete inner assholes they always wanted to be but can’t in public. It sounds like this adoptee board of Joy’s likes to play the “We’re adopted because we were SOOOOOO loved by our adoptive parents, that they CHOSE us!!!” Oh, bullshit. We’re commodities. They’d list us on NASDAQ if they could. You could just hear them on the news, “White male infant stocks tumbled today in light of the recent influx of Vietnamese infant girls that have steadily risen in value…”

  56. This is just not true Kevan. There are many Pagans on AAFC.
    I’m a Buddhist myself and I don’t feel persecuted.
    My aparents are jerks. My amom pretended to have Celiac’s disease for five years and I cannot tell you how much support my fellow AAFCer’s gave me when the truth came out.
    Why not see for yourself before trusting to comments made by an anonymous poet who can’t synch up his/her lyrics appropriately?

    And I don’t work at Taco Bell…but I do think it’s yummy.

    Mmmmm…Taco Bell.

  57. From Kevan,

    I actually have better things to do than spend time on discussion forums. Every discussion forum I’ve seen, the moderators come from the Benito Mussolini School of Tact and Diplomacy. People with the power to censor usually do.

  58. My, my, my, what ridiculous assumptions.

    You could always ask, I am non-religous but a half-assed student of Buddhism, rarely eat at Taco Bell, have been living independtly since I was 15, and run my own company. If that matters to anyone, as if someone who did live at home or work at Taco Bell, would be worthless.

    I actually care about fast-food workers too, I think they work really hard for very little, and abhor classism. I am not 40 yet either, but a lot of people I respect are 40, 50, 60, 70 and some of them aren’t even alive anymore, giving a shout out to my girl Victoria Woodhull, to Susan B., Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Abarham Lincoln and Winston Churchill, I am a big fan of those oldsters and more.

    You guys are missing the point though, it is not about me, or my birthday, or who sits at my lunch table, it is about working on adoptee rights for those that haven’t been as fortunate.

    Our support forum only officially offers friendship, it is a two-way street, disrespect our friends, and you won’t find us too supportive.

    AFC is not about adoptee rights, although we support adoptee rights. It is not for everyone, and we specifically decline to take a political stance as that would interfere with our mission. Pro-adoption adoptees are welcome as are anti-adoption adoptees.

    Actually though we have nothing to do with adoptee rights except for that many of our members have been active and have funded the protest.

    I am not an important part of the adoptee rights movement. I am a happy cog.

    I wish people would focus on what matters and I can assure them, it is not me.

  59. Wow, I just read my totally emo post about how I worshipped Marley, and it is embarrassing, but you know what else? It is all true, every pathetic word.

    Which is not all bad, it is good to look up to others that have done more than yourself.

    I am disappointed with the way things have worked out.

    I hope they work out differently in the future, but have no faith in that as maligning me seems to be of upmost importance. That is okay too, I am just an imperfect person.

    I am an arrogant person, that is true, but I will say publically here, that I very much want to have a good relationship chiefly with Marely, secondly with BN, and if I am rejected for that, so be it.

    Whatever my feelings about BN’s last decision, they have offered me a lot, without any contribution on my part.

    If they choose they can dirt on me a lot, that is their choice, but whatever choice Marley or others make, they cannot take from me the awareness that BN offered me when it was much more unpopular to do so than now, when the individuals making the risks were making them at much higher stakes than we are playing with now.

    I have not been ostracized for my views, and I know in the depth of my soul, my life is easier because of the sacrifices of those who went before me, like B.B., and like Marley.

    So again, hate me all you want, I can’t hate you back, you created awareness, you started this before I could look at it in depth.

    I am angry about certain things, but I will not lose sight of what I gained at the expense of others.

    It is okay, this love doesn’t need to be requited.

  60. I can’t see where Marley or BN as an organization are “dirting” you at all. Why do you keep acting as if they are?

    There are so many anonymooses posting that I’m getting a little confused about who is what myself.

    As a member of BN, I can assure you that there isn’t any “hate Joy” fatwah (hope I spelled that right)going on in any sooper sekrit forums. Quite the opposite.

    Truly (and I’m speaking for myself—I don’t speak for any other individual or for the organization), I wish all much success with the NOLA endeavor.

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